Upgrading Equipment and the Current Issues with Vesteria's Meta

As you may have guessed from the title, this topic is my opinion on the current state of Vesteria’s meta in terms of upgrading/enchanting equipment. I know off the bat that a lot of people will disagree with my opinion, but that’s fine. Hopefully I can change some people’s minds about it, and if I can’t, that’s fine as well.

So, let’s talk about upgrading equipment. There is currently one way and one way only to upgrade your equipment, and that’s through Scrolls. For those who don’t know, there are 4 main upgrade-based scrolls in the game. These are:

  • 100% Scrolls (Basic Scrolls) (Weapon, Armour and Headgear)
  • 70% Scrolls (Great Scrolls) (Weapon)
  • 10% Scrolls (Ancient Scrolls) (Weapon with added STR, VIT, DEX or INT bonus)
  • 60% Scrolls (Cursed Scrolls) (Weapon and Armour)

The majority of these scrolls work the same way, you apply them to your equipment and they either work and apply bonus attack or defence depending on the equipment item you’re upgrading. The less risky a scroll is to apply, the less it gives. With one exception. The Cursed Scroll has a 60% chance of working, but also has a 20% chance of completely destroying your weapon and the Scroll. The other 20% comes from when the Scroll fails, but doesn’t destroy your weapon. Cursed Scrolls can add a random amount of Weapon Attack or Defence (depending on which Cursed Scroll you’re using) and may also add a random stat bonus. Furthermore, Cursed Scrolls are also the rarest type of Scroll in the game.

Moving on, allow me to briefly touch on how colour ranking works for equipment pieces. I wont go too in-depth here, but all you have to know is basically that the order from best to worst upgraded weapon tiers are White, then Blue, then Purple, then Red, then Yellow/Gold, and finally Green. There’s been reports of other tiers existing past Green (such as Orange), but so far I haven’t seen any convincing proof that those higher tiers exist.

So that’s the basic rundown of Scrolls. Let’s get into why I personally believe that having them as the only possible way to receive good upgrades for equipment is not fun, and ends up making the game even more “grindy” then it already is.

Let’s begin by talking about what it takes to have “good” equipment. For the majority of players who play casually, you’ll most likely never go beyond a high-purple/low red-tier equipment piece, and that’s if you use a combination of Great Scrolls, Cursed Scrolls and/or Ancient Scrolls. Overall, while it is difficult to reach, it’s certainly possible.

At that point, the average player may be wondering how to move up to gold-tier equipment. Unfortunately, this is where the problems begin. The average player may have run into a Cursed Scroll or two during their playthrough. In order to have the best chances of getting gold-tier equipment, you would need to find at least 7 Cursed Scrolls and then have them all work without fail while applying at least decent upgrades. If even one fails or applies an upgrade that is sub-par, then the weapon itself becomes a “failed” weapon, and you may as well just sell it for some money. The chances of it working are unbelievably slim, but unfortunately that’s the only way to get the best weapons.

I know what you’re thinking already “But what’s wrong with that? Shouldn’t it be hard to get high-tier equipment?”. To an extent, you’re correct. It should be difficult to get high-tier equipment. But there’s a difference between it being difficult because the actual steps are difficult, and it being difficult because you’re relying on random chance. This is where my main issue lies with the current meta, because the current meta is spamming Cursed Scrolls on an equipment piece until all of the Scrolls work. This is not fun. It’s not challenging in any way. It’s just time consuming and entirely based on luck. That’s the issue. If you are not willing to spend weeks if not months farming Vesteria in order to finally get lucky, then you’re not going to succeed in PvP, or even in higher level areas (I can’t find the clip right now, but I specifically remember berezaa saying on stream that in order to succeed in future higher level areas you’d need extremely good equipment).

This is where the controversy comes in. Some people think that you should need to grind for weeks and months to get the best weapons since it represents your dedication to the game. Others (including myself) think that it should be more skill-based. I’ll touch on this a bit later. Back to the point though, for those who believe that a long luck-based grind is fair to achieve these weapons, allow me to ask you a simple question. Do you think that a full wipe, or a wipe to enchantments is justified? This is a rhetorical question of course, because by saying that the long grind in Vesteria is fair since you get a weapon you deserve, then you surely must be against a wipe. After all, it punishes players who spent the most amount of time grinding the most, does it not? I know that a lot of people who think that the current meta of grinding for Cursed Scrolls and then rolling the dice is fine are also the same people who are for a wipe to enchantments. In my opinion, these two opinions contradict each other. You must pick one and as a result of that you must logically follow the other. Either you believe that a wipe is good, which means that you believe that the current Scroll system doesn’t work well, or you believe that a wipe is not good, which means that you believe that the current Scroll system does work well.

Finally, let me address the nail in the coffin. The thing that finally pushed me to make this post. This:


In one proposed idea, the whole “Scrolls are unfair because they’re required to succeed in PvP and possibly future areas but are completely luck based or require absurd amounts of time to get” has just been solidified. Perks will force players to not only grind to get Cursed Scrolls to work, they’ll also force players to grind to get the best Perks. Furthermore, with Curses, depending on if they actually affect the weapon’s stats, it might require even more luck to avoid getting a bad Curse while also trying to get all your Cursed Scrolls to work. Essentially, all the issues in my previous paragraph would be increased tenfold by this addition.

Now that I’ve explained my point more in-depth, allow me to pre-reply to some replies you may have been thinking about.

"What about Holy and Reset Scrolls?"
I’m personally in favour of them. They certainly make it so that you don’t have to grind as long for the equipment you need, but I’d prefer if they were a guaranteed drop from an extremely difficult boss and extremely rare drops from easier bosses. I’ll go over that in a little bit.

What about new Scrolls coming out?
We most likely wont see these new Scrolls for a while, and when they do come out they’ll either be weaker than Cursed Scrolls and will hardly be used (with one exception which I’ll touch on in a second) or they’ll be stronger than Cursed Scrolls and will simply replace Cursed Scrolls as the Scroll to grind.

Of course, there is one way that this could be avoided. If the new Scroll is less powerful than a Cursed Scroll, but more powerful than a Great Scroll, but also couldn’t destroy your equipment piece, then it would function as a less-risky competitor to the Cursed Scroll, and would actually be viable.

If you’re so concerned about Scrolls not working, just use less risky scrolls!
That’s not really an option, considering that having well Scrolled equipment is pretty much the only way you’ll succeed in PvP, or higher level areas, or be invited to decent SQR parties.

I know quite a few people were waiting for this, so I’d now like to bring up the Orb. For those who are unaware, the Orb was another way to upgrade equipment. The upgrades costed Mushcoins, and were typically pretty sub-par, unless you used all your upgrade slots on an equipment piece with the Orb, in which case the final upgrade would be far more powerful than the upgrades before it. Furthermore, some equipment gained bonuses from the Orb that other Scrolls only had a small chance to apply.

Essentially, the Orb functioned as a safer way to get somewhat decent equipment without having to take massive risks. However; the Orb was removed since it was apparently “a bad idea”. I don’t think any proper reason was given as to why the Orb was actually removed.

If you have any other arguments, please post them. I’d be really interested in hearing what people have to say.

Now, let’s move on to one final section. My suggestion for how I would change it up. To be honest, I’ve proposed ideas about making how Scrolls themselves work more skill based, but I think that the best (and probably easiest) way to go about it would be to make it easier to actually obtain the rare scrolls that people use. So here’s what I’ve come up with:

Make a solo dungeon that exclusively drops rare Scrolls, but is extremely difficult to complete. It would require the user to be able to display extreme competence with Vesteria’s mechanics (such as 1 stud jumps that require precise timing, extremely difficult enemies throughout and a boss that tests both movement and accuracy), and would only be able to be faced once a day. Upon death, it would drop 1-3 random Scrolls, being either Ancient, Cursed, Holy or Reset, with Ancients and Curseds being far more common than Holy or Reset.

Is it a perfect idea that would solve everything? No, far from it. There is no perfect solution, but we can certainly make things better.

If there’s one opinion of mine that you take away from this post, it should be the following (this also will function as a TL;DR): Vesteria’s current meta of constantly grinding for Scrolls and using them until they finally work isn’t fun and doesn’t require any real skill, just a massive time investment. I would like to see the Scroll system either be re-worked to make Scrolls themselves more skill-based, or have a reliable but extremely difficult way to get rare Scrolls be added.

Anyways, that’s all I wanted to get off my chest. I admit that it’s more of a rant than a request, but sometimes that’s just how it goes. As I stated at the beginning, I know people are going to heavily disagree with my views in this post, and that’s perfectly fair. I understand their point of view, but I just personally have a different opinion. That’s about it.

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It is confirmed that there will be less upgrade attempts on weapons, thus leaving less potential to have extremely high damage, so clean weapons wouldn’t be terrible compared upgraded ones. And it would take less scrolls to produce a good weapon.

But I agree, getting good equipment should be more skill-based. Maybe there could be a hardmode for SQR with a higher scroll drop rate to be a potential solution.

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As Meta said, the lowering of upgrading attempts on most equipment will remove a lot of the luck out of this equation. I think I’ll also throw in multiple tiers of 100% scrolls, with some of the higher tier ones only being available as very expensive items. The best “safe” scroll will never give better stats than the best “risky” scroll but adding 100% scrolls that are super good and limited by their rarity/value will help take a lot of the chance out of the system for players who just want to grind towards a clear goal.

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Thank you for this. The removal of chance with its implementation will be a god send!

What are your thoughts related to the addition of the MushroomApocolypse dungeon and the ease of scroll drops now?
This seems to fix some of the issue with the lack of scrolls in the game and should make it easier for lower end players to get decently geared equipment.
I still personally don’t agree with luck based upgrades having a “huge” benefit.

Luck based upgrades are great to have in a game as long as the amount of benefit from it is limited. this allows for top tier long term players to have something that “looks” (and is) better than everyone else’s stuff… but ONLY by a little bit. they can still be the “most overpowered” but the rest of everyone gets to play too.

Currently the bonuses from high tier items seem a little bit too much of a benefit though it may become a closer gap with Apocalypse.

Thoughts?

PS: Also I forgot to add but the proposed ideas that Berezaa posted look like they will continue to help that balance better.

There are still going to be 10%, 70%, etc scrolls, just there are ALSO going to be better 100%

It’s certainly an improvement, and it’ll be interesting to see how much more common well upgraded weapons become because of it.

My only problem is that it’s not a single-player dungeon, which is something that would help prevent the cycle of “you need to play this dungeon to grind the best scrolls, but no one will want to play with you if you don’t have perfectly upgraded equipment”. Hopefully in the future though we’ll see a dungeon or raid or something that can be played (and beaten) solo even without perfect equipment.

I agree that heavily luck-based scrolls do have a place in the game, but that they shouldn’t give massive upgrades compared to every other scroll. With the release of scrolls such as the ones berezaa proposed, it fixes the majority of the issues I have with the current way upgrading equipment works.

I’m going to bump this because it’s still relevant and the new update has at best not fixed the issues with the scroll system and at worst made the scroll system even more luck-based.

While now you need less scrolls to get a gold-tier weapon, it’s actually ridiculously harder than before.
Before, Cursed Scrolls could reliably be used to get a weapon to gold-tier. Now, from what I’ve heard Cursed Scrolls only have a 10% chance to apply +4 damage, which is the requirement for gold tier. Since Spider Weapons are pretty much the meta right now because of their perks, and you need 5 perfect Cursed Scrolls to maintain the gold weapon, the chance of getting one with maximum upgrades is actually 0.001%. I don’t remember the original percentage, but it was something along the lines of 2.46% if I’m not mistaken.

Of course, you could always try your hand at Ancient Scrolls, which are now 15%. That boosts your chances by around +0.007%, to approximately 0.0076% chance. Still not great, to be honest. There’s also multiple variants of Ancient Scrolls which you can now only get through extremely rare drops. So congratulations, this supposed “rework” which would make scrolls less luck based has made scrolls even more luck based.

I know what some of you are thinking though. “But what about Holy Scrolls?” Well, assuming 1/10 of your scrolls work (10% chance) then you’d need approximately 50 Holy Scrolls to create the perfect Spider Weapon on average. Bear in mind, the chance of Holy Scrolls working goes down the more you use it on a weapon. By the 5th time or so it’s not even worth using them, and by the 10th time you may as well just start on a new weapon.

Again, there’s an easy response to this that I expect some of you were waiting for. “Scrolls only upgrade a little bit now, so it’s not that big a deal”. Unfortunately, that’s where you’re wrong. While it doesn’t really matter in practice, you’re going to be hard-pressed to find a group that’s going to want someone with a purple tier weapon over a gold tier weapon, even if they’re the exact same weapon and the damage difference makes no difference. The idea of weapon tiers has cemented itself so deeply inside the psyche of most Vesteria players that most players don’t even bother checking the actual stats of the weapon, and only look at the tier itself. That’s the issue here.

I sincerely hope that those 100% scrolls that actually provide a decent stat bonus are coming extremely soon, or alternatively a single-player only dungeon/raid.

the flaw in your idea of gold tier being harder to get is that

  1. It’s actually easier because there’s less upgrade attempts that you need to get, but that’s obvious

  2. In the past, not all cursed attacks gave damage that’s worth a gold tier. This means that if you had a +7 cursed in the past, it wouldn’t always be a Gold tier but it could also still be a Purple/Red

  3. Getting Gold Tiers with the help of ancients is now easier because now it’s 15%

  4. Failed that last scroll before getting a +5 cursed? now you can use a holy scroll

Some reasons may have been mentioned in your thing but they all point to getting Gold Tiers is easier

Your assumption of people not checking the actual stats of the weapon and only looking at the tier is probably false, looking at how weapons can be Gold Tier, yet only carry 1 upgrade.

If you had a +5 blue star’d +5 weapon damage and the other guy had a +1 star’d gold tier +4 weapon damage, it would be reasonable to take the +5 weapon damage.

Along with that, people do indeed want the best in their group, but the chance of being left out because of gold tiers are very low because that’d mean that 6 people have Gold Tiers.

its not that big of a deal, the update got what it want, being that you can’t turn a level 27 weapon into a level 60 one

Sure, but there was a higher chance previously since Cursed Attacks could also give stat bonuses which would contribute to the overall rating of the weapon. Now, they only give straight damage with a 10% chance (from what I’ve heard)/Cursed to get the damage you actually need.

See point 1’s argument.

My bad, I should clarify that my definition of a “tier” now includes both stars and colour. When I say “gold-tier” I mean gold-tier 5 star.

since i dont want to do math, i can’t push this on more

yes but 15% compared to 10% looks good, along with that, getting 2 in a row would be 2.25% now and 1% before.

You aren’t even supposed to get 5 ancients in a row, because they are known to just fail every single time you use them. This also goes in the past, so you are legit meant to just get 1 ancient scroll in or maybe 2 but using 3 or more is a little unreal.

still increases chance, which makes gold tier easier to get

though, it does not give you a 100% chance

ah, a gold-tier 5 star

they deserve to be invited, and you act as if everyone who isn’t a casual player will always have to 5 stars but no, they’ll probably have just purple and red

this means that 6 people must have better equipment than you, and this is if there’s a ton of choices to go through

this means that people with bad equipment will be with people with bad equipment and people with good equipment will be with people with good equipment

and usually, people just invite everyone who’s level 25-30 into sqrs and people level 10+ into shroompoc (because that means more golden mushrooms for the rest)

theres no problem and there’s no purpose in making it so people with good equipment will pick up people with bad equipment

because mostly they just dont care if they have good or bad equipment unless they’re speedrunning

5 tier gold is quite literally 0.00001% with curseds as you’ve stated since the new one requires you to maintain it instead of getting lucky, or ancients are 0.000076% with all 15%s

the problem with veteria’s meta is that
EVERYONE’S A HUNTER

hose mad

tee hee

=< waa

My apologies for the late reply.

While it is a lot easier to apply ancients than before, that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still harder to apply New Ancients than it was Old Curseds (only counting those with a large enough impact to hit gold)

If that’s the case, what purpose do Holy and Reset Scrolls have?

Furthermore, a number of more influential individuals in the community have been able to get enough Ancient Scrolls to get at least one, if not more full Ancient Scroll weapon(s), thus proving it’s possible and at best encouraging people and at worst practically forcing people to do the same.

Increases chance, but not by a large enough amount to be significant compared with the dropoff proposed on stream (which I can only assume is accurate since that’s the only real information we’ve gotten about how Holy Scrolls work).

Actually, quite a few people do care about good or bad equipment when inviting people to SQR and Shroompocalypse. Especially the more influential members in the community (streamers, developers, testers, long-time players, etc.). This creates a subconscious criteria for individuals inviting people to their parties that players should both be high-rank and have good equipment in order to be invited.

i dont understand what New Ancients and Old Curseds are

they could mean either Ancient scrolls now, newly applied scrolls, or something else idk

The purpose of Holy scrolls is to get as best as equipment you want, not exactly directed to one purpose of getting a 5 tier gold star. I’d be satisfied with a red tier or even perhaps a purple tier 5 star as long as it wasn’t blue.

People already know it’s possible, and it’s not exactly bad for people to try the same thing. Think.

good, you realize it increases chance

its not bad to be left out because they are influential members in the community

if they were speedrunning, yes, best equipment please

By that I mean the new Ancient Scrolls, 15% chance, and old Cursed Scrolls refer to how Cursed Scrolls used to have a chance to apply extra bonuses.

Fair enough, but by design they do encourage players to go for gold tier weapons.

That’s the exact problem though. I covered this in my original post:

As well as my more recent update:

Did you read the quote you were replying to?

I specifically said that while Holy Scrolls do increase chance, they do not increase it by enough assuming that Holy Scrolls work as proposed on stream

Again, my point still stands:

Kind of hard to join an SQR/Shroompocalypse to get the Scrolls you need if you aren’t invited to them, unless there’s an unknown way to enter them single-player that you happen to know.

also encourage many many other things, but encouraging people to go for gold tier weapons isnt exactly bad

clonko enchantment update fixed it, that was the true purpose of the enchantment update, to make sure you aren’t able to gain level 60 items out of upgrading a steel sword because scrolls used to depend on its base stats (your point now is irrelevant)

yep i read it, its just extra wording to make development team look bad even though it holds rather no meaning

“iT inCrEAsEs ChaNCe bUT noT enOUgH”

Again, my point still stands:

i agree, but for a reason that’s probably different from what youre thinking

its because people dont go to them, and if many people go to them, there’s going to be bad equipment with bad equipment and good equipment with good equipment (if people dont go to them, they just party with who they see = no problem. another problem is no people to make a party with because no one comes. another problem that supports your argument is that not many people come and 6 people with better equipment with you come before they become desperate (which is a little inconvinient and super unlikely))

to make it seem better, new players play their level while higher leveled players (ones with better equipment) farm or speedrun the level they’ve probably played multiple times

you’ve made the point that people only want high levels but who cares? there’s no problem here.

speedrunners/farmers go in one group, new players go in another group

Finished that experiment I was talking about. I put my findings at the bottom of the post.

It encourages the idea that minor difference in damage make a massive difference, when in reality they don’t.

While I admit that the PvP aspect is a bit outdated (damage differences are minor at best now), it still doesn’t change the fact that berezaa said on stream that he wants scrolls to be the main aspect in Vesteria’s meta and that higher levelled areas would require extremely well upgraded weapons to be successful. Until you can prove that that’s outdated and the vision for Vesteria’s meta has changed, then my original quote still stands.

Here’s a clip of berezaa talking about how Holy Scrolls work. I think it should clarify some things.


1:02:28 - 1:02:44

My point was that it creates a bias in the mind of non-speedrunning, casual players who start to think that anyone who doesn’t have a perfect weapon isn’t worth bringing along.

The problem becomes that you can’t farm for the scrolls you need (even if you’re high level) because you’ll be stuck with a low level group, and because of that you have a very minuscule chance to actually beat SQR or Shroompocalypse, meaning that you can’t upgrade you weapons, meaning that you can’t farm for the scrolls you need, and the cycle continues.


So, about that experiment.

I sat in the Spider Camp for 20 minutes, 10 of which I held out a blue-tier staff with +6 damage, and 10 of which I held out a purple-tier staff with +2 damage.

The results were inconclusive to say the least. While I held out the blue-tier staff, I was invited to a party 7 times. While I held out the purple-tier staff, I was invited to a party 6 times. Bear in mind that there were some factors which I could not control, such as how many people were at the Spider Camp (more were there at the beginning) and if they already had parties or not. So that was pretty much a waste of my time.